Tuesday, January 25, 2011

QuestionOfTheWeek: “Why should I not commit suicide?”

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Thoughts on the QOTW?

What are your thoughts on this week’s QOTW?

– http://www.gotquestions.org/questweek.html –

“Why should I not commit suicide?”

Comments (85)

85 Comments »

Comment by Mimi

I think this article was very well written and laid out. The passages of Scripture were presented so that a person could really see their own personal hope in Christ Jesus.

I thought that that what they mentioned here was just beautiful: “In Isaiah 61:1-3, the prophet wrote, “The LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor…to comfort all who mourn, and provide for those who grieve…to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair.”

I have a friend whose daughter committed suicide about 6 months ago. Her daughter was beautiful inside and out. She knew she was loved and she had so much to live for, she was a very bright woman and got a 4.0 in college, was Homecoming Queen in HS and had real friends that loved her. BUT sadly she couldn’t find an escape from an emotionally abusive relationship, and suicide was her means. She has left her family in mounting bills, and great anguish. They are now in finial trouble because they had co-signed her student loans and car-loan. IF she could see what she has done to her parents and her brother, I believe she never would of killed herself. Suicide is the MOST selfish act a person can do. I will say one thing in regards to her mother, her mother’s faith is very secure and she has been an amazing witness of what GOD can do to help us get through even the unspeakable. Her mother one time said “I can either run from GOD and be angry at HIM for allowing my daughter to die, or I can run to HIM, I choose to run to HIM. It is the only thing I have ever known and I thank GOD for it, because that is how I was taught to respond to GOD when I was growing up, my mother role modeled prayer for us our whole lives.”
Comment by Alyson

It is not only those who are lost and without Christ who suffer the temptation of suicide. Not all come from abusive relationships. I have lost two Christian friends, one to depression, another was being treated for Hep C and was warned that the meds could cause thoughts of suicide as a side effect. My own teenage daughter who is saved has suffered bouts of depression, panic and siucidal thoughts. The enemy will try and destroy everything that is good and that belongs to God. I praise our God continually that my daughter and I have a good relationship and when she finds herself in a place where it is hard for her to pray for herself, she trusts God to be faithful to hear her plea for help and comes me to pray for her.
Let us never neglect to pray for each other. This is spiritual warfare.
Comment by Chiltie McCormick

A new Chrismas Lullaby
on YOUTUBE
search for
Chiltie Christmas Lullaby
I pray it blesses you
Comment by William

Many years ago, I knew a graduate of a Bible College, a young pastor, who fell into a deep depression lasting several months. He first visited a medical doctor who said he needed a vacation, but that didn’t help. He felt that being a Christian the Bible should have all the answers, so he confessed everything he could think of, but it only added to his depression and low emotions. While driving one day her felt that if he drove off the road into the ditch he could end it all- the pain of suffering that he felt would never leave him. A pastor friend asked him to attend a monthly lecture given to area pastors by a very successful Christian Psychiatrist. In the lecture as the doctor listed the symptoms of depression he saw his own. He made an appointment and the Doctor told him he had a Bible on his desk to treat spiritual problems and he used medicine to treat physical illnesses. The medicine he received brought his emotional distress back to normal in 7-10 days. He felt God used him to save his life, his marriage, and his ministry. Plus, he was able for many years to recognize and help many others get through depression by seeking physical relief.
Comment by Mimi

Great post William. We need to remember the importance of the brain and other organs of the body and how they can effect us & our moods. THE thyroid for instance can cause depression if it is not functioning properly, lack of proper rest and bad eating habits can also lead to depression so can stress. There are a number of factors that can make an individual feel depressed, however once the body and the spirit are address together and not separate, than a person’s overall health, has a much better chance of being treated properly. Then you can address whatever it is that is causing the depression. Sometimes people are too hard on themselves and believe that by being a Christian the Bible is all they need, this is not true and William gave a great demonstration of that, in his post.
Comment by Mimi

This is a beautiful beautiful beautiful Video! Merry Christmas & God Bless….
Trans-Siberian Orchestra – Christmas Canon Rock
Comment by Debbie

God has created every person and has a perfect will for each and every one. When we believers commit suicide, we cut short the ministry via spiritual gifting that God has ordained for us. (EPH 2:10) Suicide is the total opposite of the Biblical definition of “hope.” Hope in the secular world is “maybe.” Hope in the divine world is “confidant expectation.” If one feels that suicide is the only answer, they either have a medical condition that needs chemical alteration and if it is not a medical condition, they need the gospel. That is the only thing that can bring hope to a human being.
MARANATHA
Comment by Edith Jane

It’s very rare but sometimes I think of suicide, it’s like Paul said “I long to be with the Lord but for your sakes I will stay.” I’m not saying that Paul was talking about suicide but that’s what comes to my mind when I think of this topic. I am a true believer and the Love of Christ is what makes me want to leave this cold place and be with our Lord. I’m not depressed or lonely I just want to worship Christ face-to-face see Him and feel Him but the beautiful love of my husband and the family God has blessed me with makes me stay. Besides I’ll have an ETERNITY to spend with the Lord!!! Being a believer in Christ Jesus means having my name written in The Lamb’s Book of Life where it can NEVER be erased, my place in heaven will not change– I have it and it won’t be taken away, ALL the sins that I have committed or ever will commit have been erased– even suicide. But do I want to take that chance??? Do you want to take that chance??? The chance that suicide is not accepted? I pray with all my heart that no one takes that chance… If I don’t want my child to kill himself or herself then imagine how God the Almighty FATHER feels, even if you make it to heaven after killing yourself you still hurt Him! Think about EVERYTHING, read the Bible start in John and read Proverbs. He speaks, you’ve just got to listen.
God bless you all my brothers and sisters in Christ!
Comment by Bonnie

this was a tear jerker…beautifully presented.
Comment by Mimi

“RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI ”
I never KNEW that if you click on this by “Leave a comment”…THAT IT WILL SHOW YOU WHEN EACH POST WAS WRITTEN, BOTH THE DATE AND TIME
Comment by nbanuchi

Some serious questions: (1) What if God decreed that you would commited suicide? How can you not commit suicide if God decreed you would? (2) Why not suicide if you don’t lose your salvation? Being with Jesus now would make up for everything that is lost and why care about “heavenly rewards” in comparison to being with Jesus?
Comment by Mindy

It was only a couple of weeks ago that I was going to end my life. I was so lost and scared and thought there was no hope. I have lived with verbal,emotional etc. abuse for 15 years now at the hand of my alcoholic husband. Being married to him has made me someone I am not proud of and just felt no hope. Then I thought of my children that the Lord has blessed me with and all the other blessings he Has given me and suddenly knew I could not end my life and needed to get help and thats where I am at now. This post just made my decision even more true and right.
Comment by Navin

Just a few minutes back before i read this article in my mail i was thinking of suicide . And even right now because of the circumstances in front of me. Few years back i stole a video camera from my dads locker, and before this one i have stole many things and sold it. This incident was like i wanted money so i gave it to my friend but after all the twist in this story My dad got the camera back. this happened in 2007 . He got it back and he hid it away . Later he brought it back to the house and i never knew about it. now after these many years He is trying to find it Just because he forgot where he kept it. so he found me to blame. After the 2007 incident i never stole anything. And finally when i have changed . He is trying to put me back to that life i had. I have suicided 2 times already. The first time was with an overdose of tegratol (180 tablets). Which put me in a coma for 2 months and 4 weeks on life support. the second one was after 6 months of my recovery i did it with 14 strips of asprin,8 strips of tegratol, 6 strips of brufen and rat poison . I survived. 4 months in coma and 3 months on life support and a another six months of of recovery from the burns in my intestinal walls and stomach. And then i vowed i will never suicide again. but this constant pressure that my dad puts on me for something i didn’t do is pulling me back to suicide again. I really would need help . because this it that last month of the year and if the pressure on me increases i will have no other choice. i thought the last month will end in peace but i don’t think it will end happily . And the only way i see this is my death.
Comment by Navin

And if any one can help please mail before the end of the year. navinkurian@hotmail.com
Comment by Mimi

Mindy,
I am touched by your post, my heart goes out to you. I am going to be praying a lot today and I will be in GOD’s Word. I will be adding you to my prayers. I will also be praying that the LORD speak to your husband. Something came to me as I am writing this post and that is YOU have something that YOU can give your children and it is something that you need to continue to hang on to your FAITH. I leave you with a lovely Christmas Story and there are other beautiful stories on this site, maybe you can share a few of them with your children.
Merry Christmas
Mimi
http://our.homewithgod.com/mkcathy/MerryChristmas/bag.html
Comment by Mimi

Great Message for all to follow…be blessed. OUTSTANDING!!!!
jesus loves you -message to christians-
Comment by Debbie

Mindy,
Way to go! You have discovered the secret to happiness. When we count our blessings instead of our cursings, we are prone to peace, tranquility and joy in our souls.
MARANATHA

Navin,
Do you understand the gospel message? That is the first place I believe you should go. Remember, everybody is resurrected to eternal life. Those who are saved to heaven and those who are not to The Lake of Fire. The gospel gives the key to the kingdom of heaven instead of hell. You should read got questions information on this subject. “Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” (JOHN 5:28-29)
MARANATHA
Comment by Alyson

Navin, Choose life. Choose Jesus Christ. He will walk you through this valley of the shadow of death. In him there is life and light.
Comment by Mimi

Navin,
I must of missed your post. Please hear what Debbie and Alyson said to you. I know your pain from my own set of circumstances and trust me there are others here who have also restled with the thoughts of suicide and they are such beautiful Christian people. I personally know of 2 people from this site that mentioned it in past blogs and both are wonder people, beautiful Christians. You can be that way too.

This is what I have to say LET IT GO. Kick it out the door. Tell Satan to take a hike and then fall in Jesus arms, think it feel it and make it your own. You can’t be tied to past mistakes if you have repented of them. Remember Jesus blood, well let it wash over you. Allow HIM to take all of this guilt and shame away, HE wants too! YOU need to confront your father and tell him what he is doing to you. Tell him if he doesn’t stop that you will kill yourself. Make him aware of what is going on with you. IF he can’t get away from him, separate yourself. YOU need to trust the LORD, the beautiful JESUS who will rescue you. I feel so bad that I missed your post,I would of responded earlier. Don’t give up, you have a lot to live for and a lot to learn. Allow Jesus to take control. I will be back with something for you. God Bless Your precious soul. WE all make mistakes and trust me, I have made plenty myself.
In Jesus Name,
Mimi
Comment by Mimi

Navin & All,

God Love Letter To Us – Today’s Christian Videos
http://www.godtube.com/watch/?v=PKZZGNNX

Navin…please feel this song and feel HIS Love for you and all HE did for you and continues to do. I adore this song!
What Can I Bring (Jeremy Riddle)
Comment by Mimi

Navin,
I want to you also know something…GOD can use what you have been through to help others. I personally take my pain and use it to reach out to others. Nothing is wasted unless we allow it to be.Take what you have gone through when you are able and help someone else.

I believe in redemptive suffering…meaning I lift my suffering up to the LORD in prayer for others. Whatever you do, just don’t stay stuck allow GOD to move in you and take you where you belong.

God Bless YOU,
Mimi
Comment by ceseeley

All;

One question after reading these tremendously, honest posts based on the following Scripture, if a person commits suicide, will they not go to Heaven?

1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

One’s body is the temple of God … etc.!
Comment by ceseeley

All;

Sentence structure is important, hopefully, this is better!

After reading these tremendously, honest posts, one question based on the following Scripture comes to mind, if a person commits suicide, will they not go to Heaven?

1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

One’s body is the temple of God … etc.!
Comment by windyblue

I know 4 people who have suicide, totally horrible. NO one understands why. I do not either. One was a boyfriend of mine, another was a friend of my husband who did it right in front of the entire family, And the other a born again Christian, a Husband of someone I know. And the other a pastors wife.
Its so sad, and still makes NO sense to me at all.
Comment by Anonymous

nbanuchi,Navin,and anyone else who is reaching out for help during this joyous season of Christmas:

Luke 2:10-11,”And the angel said unto them,”Fear not,for,behold,I bring you good tidings of great joy,which shall be to all people.(11) For unto you is born this day in the city of David, a Saviour,which is Christ the Lord.

For starters, anyone not connected with this event has a major problem to deal with right off the bat.

Now, nbanuchi,God does not decree anybody to commit suicide. God is a God of the living. ceseeley`s post #23(which is a good one)is important.
Also,what is our mission? It is to serve God, and bring Him glory.The apostle Paul understood this when he wanted to be with Christ.
Have you been considering your mission?

Navin, I couldn`t tell by your post of your status with the Lord Jesus Christ.
But, Let me ask you, please read your post #13, and count all the times you wrote: “I”, “me”, and “my”. I urge you to think outside the box, and take Mimi and Debbie`s counsel to consult a higher authority.
In fact,1 Peter 5:6-7 says “Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God,that He may exalt you in due time:(7) casting all your care upon Him; for He cares for you.”

My final word for everyone:
There is a reason for EVERYTHING. If we can`t see it, God can. So be patient,and ask Him.Don`t do anything you might regret for ETERNITY!

Grace and Peace.
Comment by Anonymous

OOPS. I don`t want to be anonymous!
My name is Richard Broch.
My post is # 25.
Comment by Mr. Tommy.

Goood-bye Dr. DAN.

Dr. Dan was a briliant man, a bible teacher with the knowledge to inform anyone about any subject; in any language — English, Greek or Hebrew. Dr. Dan was a doctor of divinity, had two doctorates in languages from 2 differant schools. A brilliant preacher, could explain things that you had harbored in your heart for ages. In fact, he was teaching The Christ You Never Knew each Sunday evening when he left. He had pastored a church in the vicinity for seven years prior to coming to our church.

Dr. Dan had taught in our church for about 6 months and everybody loved him. He sang in the choir and even led the singing on occasions when Bro. Frank had to be out for some reason.

We had a memorial service for Dr. Dan last Tuesday evening. You see, he took his own life. And as I sat there listening to all of the people talk about Dr. Dan I thought about all that he had done and all that he could have done if he was only alive. And several of the peple who spoke were preachers and most of them expressed their hopes of seeing him in the hereafter. But as much as I loved him; I don’t know too much about that…….

May God bless, Mr. Tommy.
Comment by Mark

Navin,
I can surely sympatise with you.For about 25 years ago a similar incident occurred between my dad and myself. I was acused of taking something because I was the logical one to blame and was never allowed to return. Come to find out it was a nephew who took the item.
If it was not you who took it do not fear. God will not put you through any more than you can handle. We only think we can’t handle it. He has probably misplaced it again. Encourage him to keep looking.
Remember these 2 verses ( 1 Corinthians 10:13 ) No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, He will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
( Pslams 46:10 ) Be still and know that I am God.

In the meantime I will continue to pray for healing between you and your dad.
Mark
Comment by nbanuchi

Anonymous, you said that God does not decree anyone to commit suicide.

But doesn’t God decree how, when, and in what manner one is to die (Psalm 139)? Note, the Westminster Confession reads that “God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass…yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, as that which would come to pass, upon such conditions.”

Or, are you suggetsing that some thing, e.g. suicide, occur against or outside of God’s decree or will?
Comment by nbanuchi

Hey, Richard, just read you’re the anonymous one. Hope you can find some time to consider my posting #28.
Comment by Debbie

Mr. Tommy,
That is sure hard to understand. A man who dedicated himself to the study of God’s Word, you would think would truly understand PHIL 4. Perhaps he had a chemical imbalance and therefore could not control that impulse to hurt himself. Depression is often a physical disease as well as emotional and spiritual. None of us can know if a person’s salvation is a true conversion. It sure sounds like his was. God would not give such a gift of discerning His Word and presenting it properly to an unbeliever. Suicide is murder of self and the only unforgiveable sin the the refusal to accept the gift of Jesus Christ’s blood and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. I believe he will be in the “heavenly Zion.” (HEB 12:22)
MARANATHA
Comment by Debbie

nbanuchi,
I don’t think you understand the difference between the sovereign will of God and His permissive will. God has a perfect plan for each believer. That does not mean we are puppets on a string. We can operate within that perfect will or we can “kick against the goads” as the Apostle Paul says. We have choices all the time. When a believer is operating in God’s permissive will, it is a bad place to be. He will impose His overriding will in order to correct our actions in His permissive will and bring us into His sovereign will, often while frustrating Satan. Just as a human father disciplines his children and they don’t always do as they are directed, the same is so with our Heavenly Father. Of course God knows if one is going to commit suicide. He is omniscient. He allows us though to override His sovereign will. That is our selfish sin nature at work.

I think you are confusing the decrees of God with the desires of God. There is a difference between the decree and the desires of God. Sin; human suffering; death; spiritual reversionism; human good
are not in the desire of God. God desires that human and angelic
volition line up with His will, so that he may bless. God’s decrees
are not divorced from His desires.
MARANATHA
Comment by alvin

To add my answer to the main question, “why should I not commit suicide?” is simply because it would not please God who is the living giver of life.

I doublechecked 1 Cor 3:17 from comment #23, and ‘defile’ and ‘destroy’ are the same greek word; so if you ruin your body,
God will allow you to ruin your body. The surrounding passage
from verses 1-11 contrast carnal living with building on the foundation Jesus supplies, and verses 12-21 speak of works and rewards and the loss of those rewards.

Comment #29 asks about the westminster confession, which is well written mens words, but not inspired scripture. As far as Gods’ decrees, they are always just. Though Jesus allowed Judas to betray him, he reached out to him in the garden with the words, “friend, why have you come?” Jesus said in another place, “Whoever will, let him come” to me, and again whoever “comes to me I will in no way cast out”.

James 5;11,12 includes these words, “if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one lawgiver who is
able to save and to destroy. Who are [we] to judge another?”

These words I apply toward those mentioned above who have chosen poorly in circumstances and inner turmoil I do not know.

Not every thought or reaction is rational. Medication meets some physical needs. Something as simple as extreme lack of sleep can cause irrational thought.

The path out of depression for some could be James 5:8,9 including the words “let your laughter be turned to mourning and joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord and he will lift you up.”
-Honestly facing your fear.
-Placing that pain in the hands of the One who can
do something about it.
Then you may experience Isaiah 61:3
“to appoint to those that mourn in Zion, to give them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness……..planted by Yehovah, so He is glorified.”
Comment by nbanuchi

Oops, hey, Rich, that comment is post 29…not 28. Sorry…
Comment by nbanuchi

Hi Rich, another question since you said post #23 is very important: Do you believe that a genuine believer who commits suicide has, by that very act, forfeited his salvation?
Comment by Anonymous

From Richard Broch:
Greetings to all, and especially nbanuchi,

I believe that God has created each human with “freedom of choice”, just as He created Adam and Eve.He didn`t need any more angels.And He does not want robots.
We can obey God, or not.
Also, I believe that He has the power of “fore-knowledge”of each person so that He knows in advance what that person will do in their life.

Now, God does take people out(eg. King Herod, Bathsheba`s baby)and Psalm 139 tells us God decrees death to the wicked(as in other places), but I don`t know of anywhere in the Word that He decrees suicide. I`m sorry, but I don`t know what the Westminister Confession is. Is that a man-made composition?

Grace and Peace.
Comment by Anonymous

From Richard Broch:
Hi ubanuchi,

We are told at least two places places in the Word not to judge(Matt 7:1, James 5:11-12,- Alvan`s post).
That`s God`s job, and I`m glad that HE does it.

My job is to point out Scripture relating to the subject at hand, if I can.

In the meantime I`ll just wait for my Heavenly Father to call me Home, whenever, and not rush it.

Grace and Peace.
Comment by alvin

Richard Broch added some good advice. I think the reason people are slow to mention slavation being in the Fathers hands, and Jesus own hands in John 10 27-30, is from fear that those with hurts may feel this life is not important.
God gave us this life!
We are to spend it for him, and gathering spiritual rewards to give back to him, like the apostle Paul “pressing toward the mark for the prize of the high calling in Christ Jesus”
Comment by nbanuchi

Hi Debbie,

Regarding post #32:

If by “sovereign”, you mean God rules over all, I agree. If by “permission” you mean that some events are not in God’s will/decree – things he never intended to occur – but he allows them to occur, then, again I agree.

Your next paragraph seems to pose a contradiction. First you say that I am “confusing the decrees of God with the desires of God”, which suggests a separation of the two; but afterwards you say, “God’s decrees are not divorced from His desires.” Please clarify.
Comment by nbanuchi

Hi Alvin,

In response to post #33:

Regarding the betrayal of Judas; under the assumption that all of what God decrees inevitably and certainly occurs and that decrees reflect God’s perfect will, if God decreed Judas would betray Jesus, how can it be something God allowed or permitted to occur?

No one is making a judgment on who is saved and who is not. What is being asked is, if God decrees the day of our death and the way we are to die, did he not decree this or that person in particular to specifically commit suicide?

In general, I do not disagree with your remaining comments.
Comment by nbanuchi

Hi Richard,

First, if you are not familiar with the Westminster Confession, then we’ll just forget it.

Second, you stated that you “don`t know of anywhere in the Word that He decrees suicide”, therefore, are you suggesting that there are things that occur outside of God’s decree, things which he had never intended to occur?

I agree God, “knows in advance what that person will do in their life” as long as it is understood that such divine foreknowledge neither controls nor necessitates the occurrence of the event foreknown.

As far as 139, where do you find that it states or suggests “God decrees death to the wicked”? In any event, are not we all wicked? Are not we all decreed and destined to die, unbeliever and believer alike? It seems to me that death befalls not just the wicked but also the righteous (Eccl 6:2).

Third, my comments/questions cast no judgment on any person. Like you, I only seek to “point out Scripture relating to the subject at hand”.

Does not the Bible teach that a murderer does not know God, does not have eternal life (1 Jn 3:15)? Furthermore, is not suicide classed as a form of killing, that is, murder; self-murder?

Follow the logic:

Suicide is murder.
No murderer possesses eternal life.
Therefore, one who commits suicide does not possess eternal life.

To reiterate, I judge no one; I am merely stating what I understand the Bible to be saying.

Fourth, coming back to the subject of divine decrees, you said God nowhere decrees suicide – and I agree. However, if that is the case, then I again ask, do you believe that certain events occur outside of God’s decree/will, things which God never intended should occur but permits (by virtue of His decree/will that men should exercise free will)?

Fifth, all this goes back to my initial questions in post #11, which no one has yet directly answered. If someone has posted a direct answer here, I apologize for having missed it and request you direct me to the number of that post.

Thank you.
Comment by alvin

Just to refresh on the questions in comment 11:
“1) What if God decreed that you would commited suicide? How can you not commit suicide if God decreed you would? (2) Why not suicide if you don’t lose your salvation? Being with Jesus now would make up for everything that is lost and why care about “heavenly rewards” in comparison to being with Jesus?”

Now- having put the questions asked where i can refer to them, on 1,God never decrees evil. Suicide is evil. God is good.
On 2, If you are saved you desire to please God, it is not a question of your rewards. Rewards are not payments received equal to what we have done, but blessings beyond what we deserve. God put us here, and we are to serve Him here as long as He wants us to.
Comment by Nelson

Hi Alvin,

1. I agree, God does not decree suicide. As such, would you agree that the logical assumption is that there are things that occur of which God never intended should occur?

2. Does having a desire to please God necessarily, in and of itself, prevent a person from committing suicide? It does not necessarily prevent other sins, why suicide?

Again, rewards are not the issue. But what rewards are better than the reward of seeing Jesus face to face. Might not one logically conclude that, if he can never forfeit his salvation and his whole being is caught up in wanting only Jesus, that suicide is the way to obtain a face-to-face encounter with The Lord of Glory? “So what if I lose rewards: I have Jesus!”
Comment by Debbie

This theological discussion is getting pretty deep. I like it and find these types of questions interesting. I think there needs to be Biblical definitions of many words that are being used: decree, will, sovereign, death, eternal life as it relates to the righteous and eternal life as it relates to the wicked.

Follow the logic:

Suicide is murder.
No murderer possesses eternal life.
Therefore, one who commits suicide does not possess eternal life.

So, if you say that God decrees all this then following the logic, God is a murderer.

That means God is evil or wicked.

That is totally non-Biblical.

Even a murderer has eternal life; resurrection to heaven or resurrection to the Lake of Fire.

I don’t think the decrees of God are comprehensible by the finite human mind.

I know my wording in #32 was not very clear. I am not sure I even understand it. LOL!! God’s decrees would be in alignment with His desires. They are not the same thing though. The desires of God can be frustrated by mankind, but the decrees of God cannot be. Here again, I don’t think we can comprehend God’s decrees, but He makes His desires known to us through His commandments which we may or may not obey? Thanks to all for a great discussion…
MARANATHA
Comment by alvin

Much of the discussion on suicide resides in the lah-lah land of ‘What If’?

But to at least give some semblance of a reply to Nelson, let me take up his questions.
“are things that occur of which God never intended should occur?”

Here is an interesting section of Jeremiah 32:35 “they caused their sons and daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, neither did it come into my mind that they should do this abomination”, and certain things happen in the following verse because of these sinful human actions.

I realize that some groups teach suicide is an unforgivable sin, but based on the frailty of the human mind,and the ability to do unpremeditated acts, I do not think you can prove that eternal salvation cannot save sometimes.

next question:”Does having a desire to please God necessarily, in and of itself, prevent a person from committing suicide?

Yes. You cannot please God and sin at the same time. However, a person who is out of their mind has no desire requiring reasoning ability.

“So what if I lose rewards: I have Jesus!”?

Does the suicide really have Jesus? Many will say in that day, Lord, Lord, and hear I never knew you. Psalm 19:12,13 speak of the 2 sins of secrecy, hiding from God and/presumption, taking advantage of God.
Jesus himself in his temptation turned away the devils suggestion to throw himself down with “you shall not tempt the Lord your God”.
Having stated my opinion, I still have to return to the book of James pointing to God the righteous judge, and our need to obey Gods law ourselves, not apply a sentence upon others (James 4:6-12).
Comment by nbanuchi

Hi Debbie,

1. I agree that to follow the logic would make God, being the author of sin in the final analysis, a murderer; and, as you point out, such a view of God is not biblical.

2. You are right that definitions would be helpful. Let me provide some and tell me if you agree with these them:

Decree – God’s free and unchangeable will to ordain all things that come to pass (this definition is from a particular theological perspective).

Sovereign – The free power of God to “uphold, direct dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence” in accordance with His decree (as defined by that same theological perspective).

Eternal Life – acknowledging all possess eternal life, yet, the NT envisions it the positive sense (Jn 3:16), that is, as the possession of the life of God and being forever in His fellowship and presence. As it relates to the wicked, it is an existence forever in the fallen state and under the wrath of God(my own definition).

3. I disagree that God’s decrees respecting salvation are incomprehensible. If God has revealed to us everything that pertains to salvation in Christ (2 Peter 1), then it is only reasonable to conclude that he would not do so in a manner that incomprehensible to us.

4. Furthermore, I do not think God would decree anything contrary to or outside of His desires; the decree follows after the desire, therefore, although they may not be the same thing, nevertheless, they are closely related and one cannot be conceived apart from the other.

5. I could agree that God’s desires may be frustrated but not His decree. For example, God desires and wills the salvation of all men, which he decreed on the basis of faith. Not all men will be saved, which frustrates His desire; but, since salvation is conditioned upon human faith, His decree in salvation is not violated (Ezek 18:
23,32; 33:11).

6. However, I define the divine decrees simply as “God’s eternal, all-encompassing plan for creation” (from the “Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms”). As such, His commandments to His creatures cannot contradict His decrees. There is no contradiction between what God decrees and what God desires and what God commands. Although he will permit men to rebel, that is neither his desire, decrees, nor command. That all men be saved in Christ on the condition of faith in Christ is both his desire, decree, and command (2 Pet 3:9). That it does not occur, although it frustrates His desire, decree, and command, is no intrusion upon the divine sovereignty.
Comment by nbanuchi

Hi Alvin,

1. You said, “Does the suicide really have Jesus? Many will say in that day, Lord, Lord, and hear, I never knew you.”

As such, you seem to suggest that a person who commits suicide is not in a saved condition (which seems to admit agreement with me). Then, having stated to give your opinion, you suggest one ought not to judge (although, having voiced your opinion is itself making judgment).

We all agree suicide is murder…no?

As such, is one who professes Christ while committing murder in a saved state? It seems that your answer, in light of your response mentioned above, must be only an opinion. As you stated with respect to suicide, one ought not to judge the brother in Christ who commits murder.

2. Nevertheless, you seem to be missing my main point of concern.

If a believer can never lose his salvation, then the worse he could do by committing suicide is disappoint God. He will still be saved. Of course he may lose rewards but what is that to the believer who desires not rewards but to be in the Presence? And what reward is greater than being face to face with the Savior (Psalm 16:11b; Ps 73:25)?

Even if they are in a bad frame of mind, as a genuine believer it makes no difference; to commit suicide is to be in the Presence of Christ. Besides, is such logic really deranged thinking?

But is the one necessarily deranged to desire to commit suicide? They just may be weak of mind, discouraged in heart, and tired of body to go on against the many difficulties in life; and they may see suicide as an opportunity afforded them – if they believe they can never lose their salvation – for deliverance. Yes, they may realize it is not God’s desire and that God will be disappointed but, nevertheless, convinced that God understands and loves them even while they sin, convinced that they can never fall out of the Father’s hand, and wanting so desperately to be released from their situation…they commit suicide.

Look at it another way; yes, the person who commits suicide will disappoint God but, at least, that will be the last time He will ever disappoint God. The living, on the other hand, will continue with life here along with the probability of disappointing God more times and in ways greater than he who commits suicide; and all this goes on while the one who committed suicide enjoys the Presence of God and is in the state of continually pleasing God, no longer disappointing Him, for all eternity!

Now you may give your opinion that they were never saved, but again, that is only your opinion, which you’ll need to keep to yourself for fear of “speaking evil of your brother” (Jam 4:12).

It seems to me that such a security in salvation invites suicide rather than discourages it.
Comment by nbanuchi

Let me propose a hypothetical, although a probable, situation.

Someone from your church whom you know, for all intents and purposes, is a Christian comes to you and says, “I don’t want to live in this world anymore. I’m just tired of it all. I’m contemplating suicide so I can jus be at peace in the presence of Jesus. Are you able to give me at least one all-compelling reason why I should not take my own life in order to be with my Savior?”

How would you respond?
Comment by alvin

puzzle from above:
“Someone from your church whom you know, for all intents and purposes, is a Christian comes to you and says, “I don’t want to live in this world anymore. I’m just tired of it all. I’m contemplating suicide.
How would you respond?”
I would try and find out where the persons hurt was to try to help, and also to see if the person was just talking or really had the intention of suicide.
If they really seemed to have the intention I would call the authorities and see if they could be committed for self protection.
Many who think such thoughts realize the stupidity of that type of reasoning with time to sleep it off.

Further questions above:
“But is the one necessarily deranged to desire to commit suicide?” ”
Yes.

“1. You said, “Does the suicide really have Jesus? Many will say in that day, Lord, Lord, and hear, I never knew you.”
As such, you seem to suggest that a person who commits suicide is not in a saved condition”

Many suicidal are unsaved, but not all. The normal life of a christian involves the fruit of the spirit in Galatians 5 (love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance). It is possible for the physical human mind to be chemically off balance. As I stated before, even extended lack of sleep can do this. Some tribal peoples has searched for visions by denying the body all of these needs and received delirium. To say that some who are depressed are not saved is not judging a particular individual.

next question “We all agree suicide is murder…no?”
No.
Suicide causes death, but not all death is murder. Illustration, 1st degree, 2nd degree, manslaughter, justifiable homicide, cause unknown, acts of God, failure to thrive in infants.
The case study of Jacob/Israel in Genesis 42:3,4; 43:36-38; 44:21-23,33,34; 45:26-28; 48:10,11. Shows how people important to us and circumstances around us can change our own life and feelings.

“as a genuine believer it makes no difference” ( a partial quote) is so wrong that I do not need to discuss it.
As far as Gods will, decree, desire, and command: Yehovah will do justice and righteousness whether we understand Him or not. “lean not on our own understanding, in all our ways acknowledge Him and He will direct our paths” is a secure path from Proverbs for our lives.

Since you and I are human beings, by definition, no matter how researched our thoughts are, they are still filtered through our intellect and so are only opinions.
Some opinions eventually end up proving themselves to be founded on fact after all, like the _theory_ of gravity.
Comment by alvin

Psalm 16:11a “You will show me the path of life.”
Psalm 73:26a “my flesh and heart fail, God is the strength of my heart”
Comment by Debbie

nbanuchi,
I am pretty sure I agree with all of your points of definition.

In regards to comment #48, I would have to use EPH 2:10; “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” I do not believe that God ordains suicide. We are “created in Christ Jesus unto good works” not suicide, which is evil. We will be with our Savior in HIS time and will and therefore, we need to carry on with His divine good works until such time as He takes us home or returns for us as His bride. I say “I don’t want to live in this world anymore,” all the time. God has ordained divine good works for me to do in the form of ministry within and without a local church body, therefore, I try, as much as is possible to yield to the Holy Spirit’s leading in operation of my spiritual gifts to further the glory of Jesus Christ. Sometimes it is cleaning toilets. Other times it is paying somebody’s tuition in my church body. It is also ministering to women and children by teaching Bible doctrine. If I commit suicide, how can I bring further glory to God? That is the only reason I exist; to bring glory to God. I guess it really has to come down to somebody understanding the sole reason they are alive on this earth. These are things that I often do not believe we can comprehend with our finite minds. I agree with you that salvation is totally comprehensible. Some things are not.

“For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.” (ISA 55:8)

“Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. [Such] knowledge [is] too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot [attain] unto it.” (PSALM 139:5-6)

Thanks for interesting discussion and debate that is cordial and not mean spirited. It is refreshing….
MARANTHA
Comment by nbanuchi

Hi Debbie,

In the first place, I am happy to know that you find this discussion cordial and refreshing. Sometimes I fear I am being blunt and thereby offensive.

We are pretty much in agreement.

However, the point I am trying to make is that if a Christian can never forfeit salvation by turning away from trusting Christ, what real incentive is there to stop a person from committing suicide? Yes, one can tell the person that he would disappoint God but is that a real and solid incentive?

You wouldn’t try and convince a friend contemplating robbing a bank to not do it by arguing that his parents will be disappointed, however true that may be…would you?

Furthermore, cannot God achieve glory for himself through the act of suicide? If God can work all things together for good, can He not turn an act of suicide to achieve good ends? It seems God will not really lose any glory by one’s suicide; He will just need to obtain it other means and other Christians, which is not at all hard for God to do…is it?

When we have sinned, don’t we pray that God would achieve glory for Himself somehow and in some way in spite of it?

God did create us for good works but how many of us are in the place of always doing a good work? Are there not moments we displease God? Are there not times when, having messed things up, we need God to fix it? How many reading this post have acted sinfully deliberately, maybe snuck a few office supplies out of the workplace for home use, told a few “small” lies to cover an embarrassment – we knew it was wrong to do but did it anyway. And why did we do it? Maybe we thought the act was not that sinful, or that God understands us, or that we knew God would forgive us. “It’s just a pen,” or “I won’t tell the pastor it was my mistake.”

Was the fact that God would be displeased a real incentive not to steal the pen, not to lie to the pastor?

What works for the “small” sins, applies also with “big” sins like suicide:

“God understands me.”

“God has forgiven me this sin, already, even before I do it.”

“God will work it out for good.”

“God sees Jesus, not my sin, my suicide.”

And, the rationale I’ve made before, “I don’t want rewards; I just want Jesus.”

Ever wonder what is the decisive factor for a person to rob a store or a bank? Ever wonder what is the real reason why a person actually makes the decision to commit murder and does it?

Because they really believe they won’t get caught.

What the person who contemplates suicide is a real, tangible, valid, convincing, logical reason not to commit suicide; a reason enough to dissuade him; a reason that lets him know that he will “get caught” if he does it.

The notions of “eternal security”, as developed in a particular theological system will invite suicide rather than discourage it.

As far as the Biblical citations you posted, yes, I agree we cannot know the fullness of God’s mind. However, that is no instruction to tell a man seeking to kill himself, “Peace. Peace”, where there is no peace.

What do all of you think?
Comment by nbanuchi

Alvin,

I apologize, but I do not understand the point being made by the Bible references cited. Please explain. Thanks.
Comment by Debbie

Wow..I really don’t think that “eternal Security” invites suicide. In fact, the doctrine of justification gives hope and demonstrates God’s love. If we really love somebody, why would we do something that displeases them so much as suicide displeases God? If somebody really feels that they must do that and they would not accept the Scripture I present, then how can I, a mere mortal, stop them? We can only lift up the Word of God and that will change a person’s mind or not. A person dies in Scriptures for different reasons.
1. To glorify the Lord (JN 21:19; LUKE 16:19-31)
2. Because their service on earth is completed. (2TIM 4:7; REV 11:7; JN 19:30; EPH 2:10)
3. For reasons of maximum discipline. (1COR 3:17; 11:30; 1JN 5:16; 1CHRON 10:13)
I think suicide is interfering with service on earth. To say one love the Lord Jesus Christ and then to disobey His will and take their life is an oxymoron.
MARANATHA
Comment by alvin

nbanuchi, in #50 i used
Psalm 16:11a “You will show me the path of life.”
Psalm 73:26a “my flesh and heart fail, God is the strength of my heart”
responding to your own references in comment#47 “And what reward is greater than being face to face with the Savior (Psalm 16:11b; Ps 73:25)?”
i was showing in your own references that it is Yehovah who reveals the path of life and strengthens the heart here in this life.

In open blogs i try to keep in mind not only the people writing but the people reading- in a topic like this that will include people who are depressed or temporarily see no future for themselves.
in other words, this is not just a debate free from affecting humans with needs.
as far as making a point one way or another about whether eternal security has any effect on the percentage of suicides in one christian teaching or another, i think statistics will show no difference. in fact some have reversed the argument in this way- those who cannot be sure of not losing their salvation are under terrible emotional strain, believing in heaven and hell and unsure of receiving one or avoiding the other. (those who teach free will still personally base their salvation on the faithfulness of God.)
there is a flaw in the ‘eternal security made me do it’ arguement however.
Let me comment on this statement of yours-
“However, the point I am trying to make is that if a Christian can never forfeit salvation by turning away from trusting Christ, what real incentive is there to stop a person from committing suicide? ”

aside from the issue of the natural inborn human desire to live, incentive is an advertising word, a word of manipulation, a word of psychiatry and counselling. it has value in that arena.

truth is a scripture word. what is true is what is important without consideration of the incentives to sway people one way or another. i am willingly naive enough to believe that truth is the only dependable basis for belief.
You know the verse “God is able to save to the uttermost…”. There are many who believe they have put God under a binding contract through a salvation prayer while withholding their trust from that Divine Person, but God is trustworthy and will reward true dependency upon Him as all the John 3:16 type verses state.
Comment by nbanuchi

Hi Alvin,

Is there a record of the number of those seriously contemplating suicide who actually commit it in comparison to those who “sleep it off” and do not?

nbanuchi: “But is the one necessarily deranged to desire to commit suicide?”
Alvin: “Yes.”
nbanuchi: Are you suggesting that all suicide is the result of insanity?

Alvin: “Many suicidal are unsaved, but not all.”
nbanuchi: That may be a matter of personal opinion with respect to professing believers in Christ.

With reference those who profess Christ and are saved (and I suppose if one who professes Christ comes to you and says they are contemplating suicide, you would not question their salvation for fear of violating the scriptural injunction not too judge…no?), questions:

1. Would you tell them (what you believe to be Scriptural truth) that they will see God anyway although he might be somewhat disappointed?

2. Or, would you hide that truth from them for fear it would encourage suicide?

3. Or, do you believe that the teaching wherein a Christian can never lose their salvation discourages suicidal tendencies and would emphasize God’s love demonstrated in keeping them regardless of their committing suicide?

Alvin: “The normal life of a Christian involves the fruit of the spirit…”
Nbanuchi: Question: But is this “normal life of a Christian” necessarily consistently lived as such and does such a life insure against suicidal tendencies?

Alvin: “It is possible for the physical human mind to be chemically off balance. As I stated before, even extended lack of sleep can do this.”
nbanuch: But being chemically imbalanced or lack of sleep are not themselves the cause of suicidal tendencies among believers…are they? In any case, is there no provision in the Bible for the healing of such imbalances and grace for obtaining sleep or, at the least, divine power to endure either ailments?

Alvin: “To say that some who are depressed are not saved is not judging a particular individual.”
nbanuchi: Are you suggesting that depression is a sign that one is not saved?

Is it being judgmental and thus a violation of the charity God commands us to have for each other to say that a Christian (not necessarily with the intention to suggest that all Christians) who committed suicide demonstrated he has thus forfeited his salvation?

nbanuchi: “We all agree suicide is murder…no?”
Alvin: “No.”
nbanuchi: Well, you sure surprised me with that answer! And your response has left me bewildered. :/

Looking at the Bible verses you cited, I fail to understand you’re reasoning as to how they support your contention that not all suicide is murder. Those verses reflect a change of mind not to commit murder; in the story of Joseph and his brothers, a murder was not committed in the first place.

Furthermore, it eludes me how showing that “people important to us and circumstances around us can change our own life and feelings” supports your contention that suicide is not murder (or, for that matter, the relevance of this and the verses cited to the subject of suicide). BTW, there is no Gen 43:36-38.

Alvin: “as a genuine believer it makes no difference” (a partial quote) is so wrong that I do not need to discuss it.”
nbanuchi: It would have been better to quote me fully here, where I said, “Even if [those contemplating suicide] are in a bad frame of mind, as a genuine believer it makes no difference; to commit suicide is to be in the Presence of Christ. Besides, is such logic really deranged thinking?”

The point of my comment: If a believer can never forfeit his salvation, then being in a “bad frame of mind” or deranged cannot erase him from the book of life or remove him from the Father and Son’s hand…can it? Therefore, unless you are asserting the impossibility for a genuine believer to be in a “bad frame of mind” or become deranged, I stated that these situations make no difference with respect to one’s possession of eternal life, that is, his saved condition.

BTW, if you are asserting that a genuine believer cannot be deranged or in a “bad frame of mind” (which phrase needs clarification because having pigeon poop drop on one’s head while walking to work just might put any genuine Christian in a “bad frame of mind” if not temporarily deranged), then you will need to explain how this can be in the light of what is observed and experienced.

Alvin: “As far as God’s will…Yehovah will do justice…

“lean not on our own understanding…is a secure path from Proverbs…”

…no matter how researched our thoughts are, they are still filtered through our intellect and so are only opinions.

nbanuchi: As far as God’s will, no argument here. However, I do argue that His moral intentions are for us to know and comprehend.

The trust being called for in Proverbs is obedience to God’s moral order as revealed in His Word; it is a trust despite the uncertainties in life. It is the call to walk in obedience to God heedless of present misfortunes working against us or despite the future consequences envisioned by us.

Nothing is stated about not understanding what God requires or expects from believers. Nothing is said about not understanding where God guides or directs. One may not know exactly where God leads, but like you stated, God will lead to righteousness – and righteousness is what we need to comprehend; we need not comprehend exactly where we are heading only the way in that we are to go. That is leaning on God.

But how does this relate to suicide, unless you are suggesting that God leads some believers – for reasons incomprehensible to us – to commit suicide? I do not believe that is what you are suggesting.

Please clarify.

BTW, would you consider my assertion that “Jesus is God and Lord, the only Savior” as something filtered through my intellect and so only an opinion?
Comment by alvin

nbanuchi seems to feel ‘opinion’ and ‘judgment’ are equal terms in the quotes below.I suggest that they are two very different activities.
“Now you may give your opinion that they were never saved,[my note: i made no such blanket statement of all individuals who attempt suicide] but again, that is only your opinion, which you’ll need to keep to yourself for fear of “speaking evil of your brother” (Jam 4:12).”
and
“As such, you seem to suggest that a person who commits suicide is not in a saved condition. Then, having stated to give your opinion, you suggest one ought not to judge (although, having voiced your opinion is itself making judgment).”
and
“As such, is one who professes Christ while committing murder in a saved state? It seems that your answer, in light of your response mentioned above, must be only an opinion. As you stated with respect to suicide, one ought not to judge the brother in Christ who commits murder.”(please note the debating tactic of switching between the words suicide and murder).

” Let me try to point to the difference between opinion and judgment as in James and Matthew stated in previous comments.
James speaks of someone being a judge and not a doer of the law.
opinion is observation processed through human intellect.
Judgment in James is presiding over or passing sentence on another person. We are not in a position to do this since we do not have all the facts or all wisdom like God. Humanity does ‘judge’ on the outward appearance, making the attempt to place just sentence while only having enough facts for an opinion. This movement onward to presiding over others James is speaking against.
Not to consider what your eyes see is extremely foolish.
To assume you know the whole story of any other person is also extremely foolish.
I must compliment nbanuchi on his almost talmudic
circular reasoning.
Comment by Anonymous

From Richard Broch

A very difficult subject with some excellent posts going here.
Let me add a few more thoughts:

I don`t think this matter of suicide can be summed up in one lump of explanation.There are many applications from varied levels of belief.
For instance, I had a friend with whom we sat in a multitude of Bible studies together, in fact he was a leader in some. He was an up-standing family man with a loving wife and family.

Then he got hooked up with another woman. He told the whole story to his wife, and commited suicide a short time later.

And I know of professed atheists who ended their lives. And those in severe pain.
Does God treat each case on its own circumstances?

Debbie hit a big nail on the head with her reference from Isaiah = We definitely don`t have a clue of God`s ways of thinking and actions.

It seems to me that a person contemplating suicide might be all wrapped up in self. The late Oswald Chambers said something about the main reason a person not coming to Christ is because they refuse to give up their right, to their claim, to theirself. Pride ?….
Have you ever noticed, how much a potential suicider refers to themself? Pride is an abomination to God (Proverbs 16:5). And sometimes what seems right to a man will end in total destruction (Proverbs 16:25).

I still am firmly of the opinion that life is a gift from our Heavenly Father. I know suicide is not listed as the un-forgivable sin, but…… I wouldn`t want to come face to face with my Savior after trashing that gift……

Grace and Peace.
Comment by nbanuchi

Hi Alvin. How are you doing?

Regarding your posting #57:

I just looked up the word “judge” and found one of its definitions to be “to form an opinion about: judge character; judge distances”. Looking at the definition of “opinion”, I read, “a judgment or estimation of worth or value of a person or thing.” So, if one says of another who commits suicide that he is not saved, their opinion is a form of judgment and, as such, I’m not confusing the terms; they can be related terms. With reference to Matthew (7:1?) and James, they both speak of the same forms of judgment; Matthew is not discussing giving a mere opinion. Of course, you haven’t said anything about Matthew, so I’m only going by what your comments respecting James implies.

I agree, we don’t have all the facts in a case and that is why our judgments over another ought never to take the form of a condemnation against a brother’s character or profession of faith, which is what both Matthew and James warn about. But to form opinions/judgments regarding persons is permitted; what is not permitted is unwarranted judgments, which have no sound basis.

Unfortunately, there seems to be no response made to my comments/questions concerning suicide, so there is nothing else for me to say at this point.
Comment by nbanuchi

Hi Richard. How are things on your end of the planet?

Regarding your posting #58:

Richard: “Does God treat each case on its own circumstances?”
nbanuchi: Circumstances are not the basis for God deciding one’s eternal fate; their moral character will tell the tale.

Richard: “Debbie hit a big nail on the head …We definitely don`t have a clue of God`s ways of thinking and actions.”
nbanuchi: If anything, we do have, at the least, clues to what God is doing respecting salvation. It’s in the Bible. He chooses believers whose faith works for salvation and rejects the unbelieving and disobedient. Suicide, in general, may be the ultimate act of disobedience; ultimate because (a) you can no longer disobey, and (b) neither can you repent.

Of course, I agree there are rare exceptions to the “rule” but, in general, this is the gist of it.

Richard: “…the main reason a person not coming to Christ is because they refuse to give up their right, to their claim, to theirself. Pride ?”
nbanuchi” Can’t argue with Chambers but that is not the picture as a whole. The basic or general reason why people refuse to come to Christ is stated in John 3:19-21: “men loved darkness rather than light.”

Richard: “ I wouldn`t want to come face to face with my Savior after trashing that gift…”
nbanuchi: The point is that suicide, like adultery, is on the whole, a refusal to trust God in Christ (for whatever reason) and, if faith is set aside, eternal life is if not already forfeit, in danger of being so.

Question: If you believe in “eternal security”, why fear “to come face to face with [your] Savior after trashing that gift”?

What is the worst that can happen? You disappoint him and he takes away some rewards. But if his anger is but a moment and his favor is for a lifetime…then after all is said and done, you’ll have an eternity to enjoy each other. In reality, nothing was lost.
Comment by ceseeley

Richard Broch and All;

Richard, I agree that God must consider each suicide on its on merits because the Bible says that even when a Sparrow falls, God takes notice. (i.e. I can’t find that Scripture in the Bible, I hope that is where I read it!)
Comment by alvin

Hello nbanuchi, the comment #58 by Richard seems to be a fair and succint summary for this topic. I do not want to answer all your questions as the topic may become too long to be readable to others.
Since I shocked you with one of my replies, let me shock you with one more. You asked:
“BTW, would you consider my assertion that “Jesus is God and Lord, the only Savior” as something filtered through my intellect and so only an opinion?”
Yes-That would be true-
The apostle Paul stated, “if Christ is not risen, we are of all men most miserable” But then, I believe he got a big smile on his face when he followed up with, “but now Christ IS risen from the dead.”
You, I, and every living human being have not seen God at any time.
“we walk by faith and not by sight” “looking unto Jesus”.
Just because our hope is sure, and Jesus in fact is God and Lord, the only Saviour, does not change the fact that it is our opinion until the day we see Him face to face. Others have other opinions which will eventually be proved wrong. Our opinion is backed up by the down payment, the earnest of the Holy Spirit in our hearts crying out, “Abba, daddy, Father”.

It is also quite easy to get too high an opinion of our ability as counsellors to the distressed, and build up false guilt when some refuse to be rescued. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit we can work in the areas of receiving remembrance, and bearing witness in matters of sin righteousness and judgment. We have not failed as helpers if others choose wrongly.

You did catch a typo on one of my Genesis references.
Comment by alvin

The Ceseeley sparrow falls reference might be Matthew 10:29-31 or Luke12. “do not fear, you are of more value than many sparrows”.
Comment by Nelson

Hi Richard,

God is aware of the sparrows fall, which speaks of the concern and sympathy he has for us in Christ; howver, to take the text and interpret it as you suggest is going beyond the Scriptural intent, at least, as I see it.
Comment by Anonymous

From Richard Broch:

Thanks ceseeley. Yes,it`s in Matthew 10:29.

My friend, nbanuchi, obviously you are convinced in your convictions regarding this matter of suicide, as I am.

Jesus says several times in his powerful prayer (John, Chapter 17)that we would all be one, as He and His Father are One.
As long as we are one in believing John 3:16,along with John 14:6, we are operating from the same foundation of faith (Hebrews 11:6).

If we were standing face-to-face right now, I would offer my hand in a posture of agreement to dis-agree with certain aspects of our debate.

Grace and Peace.
Comment by Nelson

Hi Alvin,

Yep, well, I tend to disagree about the assertion made is a mere opinion…but, no need to continue haggling that issue (besides the misapplication – in my opinion, of course – of Paul’s proclamation).

I don’t see the relevance to your last paragraph on the subject, but again, that’s my opinion .
Comment by nbanuchi

Hi Richard,

Just to let you know, there was no intent to “debate” the issue; I call it a discussion of different viewpoints. I think we all have important things to say about it and insights that we can all learn from. I don’t necessarily nail down all that I have come to understand from my readings of the Bible and any change of “opinion” or theological outlook always proves invigorating and freeing if our intent is to learn to trust Him more and more.

So, yes, we’ll agree to disagree but I think we agree more than we disagree…do you agree?
Comment by alvin

nelson said,”I don’t see the relevance to your last paragraph on the subject, but again, that’s my opinion .”

-And as your opinion you have every right to hold it and express it.
Comment by Nelson

Hi Everybody,

I hope this has been a good discussion.

I think what was lost in the responses to my comments and questions was the main point (and maybe I have not expressed it clearly), which is the problem the notion of “eternal security”, held by certain segments of Christianity, poses in relation to those contemplating suicide who profess to be Christians (and, as such, ought not to be questioned without proper warrant).

I do not think that those who hold to “eternal security” ar able to offer a sound basis of reasoning that discourages suicide, neither can they offer convincing arguments that demonstrate the utter heinousness of such an act and the depth of loss and grief that God may experience by its commitment.

It seems to me that one who espouses “eternal security” would only the more encourage suicide if he offers his honest counsel reflective of such a doctrine.

Maybe I missed it (and someone can give me the post number), but it seems that my points were missed and not directly answered. For example, I asked (something to the effect of) what need of rewards can one thinking of suicide have if all he wants is to be in the direct presence of Jesus in whom there is complete peace of mind and freedom from difficulties? What reward in danger of being forfeited can be greater than being in Jesus’ direct Presence?

I think an honest and logical assessment of the problem posed by the doctrine of “eternal security” would show that it encourages rather than discourages suicidal tendencies.
Comment by Debbie

“Eternal Security” is the work of God. Only God can justify the sinner. We cannot undo what God has done. Sanctification is the work of the “believer.” I use that word carefully because not everybody who claims to be a believer is one. I have many acquaintances and family who say, “I believe in Jesus and there is a God in heaven.” WHOOPEE….do you have a relationship with this Jesus and God? NO. IF I believe in eternal security, why would I want to commit suicide? I would be so seeking God’s will for my life in this world and seeking to do the ministry that He has ordained for me. (EPH 2:10) Either we believe the Scripture or we don’t. Every “True Believer” has a spiritual gift and a pre-ordained ministry. Without prayer and study of the Word (JOHN 1:1) one will never know….God is the judge. We are not. Eternal security can only be granted by an absolute, righteous judge. We don’t go to a secular court and decide our guilt or innocence. Why do we think that we can do it with our spiritual life? Let eternal security be God’s domain. In a true conversion then we will “work out our salvation with fear and trembling.” (PHIL 2:12) I have not found anywhere in Scripture which says that working out our salvation means suicide in order to be in the direct presence of Jesus. There are ranks and authorities in the heavenly realm just as on earth. This is the result of rewards. How do you know that your rank because of suicide may not include being in the direct presence of Jesus? We don’t know these things. That may be the place of honor for those who fight the good fight. If somebody is dead set on committing suicide, then I would not be able to stop them. If it is OK to do that, then why not murder all the believers so we could send them to heaven? Justification guarantees your “not guilty” verdict and a place in the heavenly reams. Sanctification allows you to work out your place of rank and reward in the heavenly realms. I would not want to give Jesus an account of myself having committed suicide. You don’t know what those rewards are. You might find out how much you have lost when you reach heaven.

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.” (2COR 5:10) This is a believer’s judgment, not the White Throne.

“For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.” (1COR 3:11-17) I would choose to build on the foundation. Destroying the temple ceases any building process. Don’t play God. We are not equipped to justify anyone.
MARANATHA
Comment by Nelson

Hi Debbie,

…I’m treading carefully…

Hi Debbie,

If it is okay with you, I am only responding to the comments you made that are directly related to the subject of suicide.

Let me just say that the discussion does not revolve around the subject of justification or sanctification. Neither is there any need to use the word “believer” carefully; might as well use the word “Christian” carefully, also.

Regarding your last comment, “Don’t play God. We are not equipped to justify anyone,” I think you’ll be hard-pressed to find anywhere in my postings where I even hinted at being able to justify anyone.

Are you suggesting that not all believers will be in the direct presence of Christ? Where will they be? Are there different degrees of closeness to Christ in Heaven? Please provide me with the Biblical data in support of your assertion?

You said, “We don’t know these things”, but may I respectfully submit, it is not what we do not know, which should be shared with those contemplating suicide but what we do know. No sense muddying the waters with unfounded notions; their minds are muddied enough.
Comment by Anonymous

From Richard Broch.

RE: Debbie`s Post #70: WELL SAID!…. AMEN.

Grace and Peace.
Comment by Debbie

Sorry Nelson,
I was commenting on your post concerning “eternal security.” Seems you were more focused on the doctrine of eternal security than why should a Christian NOT commit suicide. We know for a fact that Scripture talks about a judgment for believers and it also talks about reward and loss. Read the parables. Are we not given minas to invest for God’s Kingdom? Are we supposed to increase these things (rewards)or bury them in the sand (suicide)? “And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (MATT 25:30) Notice it does not say “unprofitable unbeliever.” A “servant” and particularly a servant of the master’s household is cast into outer darkness. This is not talking about believers and unbelievers. There is absolutely not anywhere in Scripture that says taking your own life in order to obtain eternal security is a good thing. I don’t think there are any Scriptures that talk about suicide. Using the topic of suicide to put down those who believe in eternal security was a cheap shot. Reread your statement. Every paragraph is talking about eternal security.

“I asked (something to the effect of) what need of rewards can one thinking of suicide have if all he wants is to be in the direct presence of Jesus in whom there is complete peace of mind and freedom from difficulties? What reward in danger of being forfeited can be greater than being in Jesus’ direct Presence? Read the Scripture…”If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” I would not want to venture what LOSS entails. Could it be MATT 25:30? I don’t know, but I would not want to tempt fate.

“Are you suggesting that not all believers will be in the direct presence of Christ? Where will they be? Are there different degrees of closeness to Christ in Heaven? Please provide me with the Biblical data in support of your assertion?” I can no more suggest that not all believers will be in the direct presence of Christ than you can that those who suffer loss of rewards won’t. Ultimately, all true believers end up in REV 22 in the presence of Jesus. The millennial world is a different story. There will be a government (ISA 9:6-7) and those who have the greatest rewards will have the greater position. Are we, the average citizens in the presence of Barak Obama? NO. It will be the same way in the millennial kingdom. We are all citizens of heaven but we will not all be in the presence of the King. This does not sound like much in our human thinking. It’s only 1,000 years, right? What difference does it make? Imagine Christ separating Himself for a short time from the Father and Spirit. In MATT 27;46 Jesus (borao): cried in horror. We cannot fathom separation from the Godhead in our fallen state. Ask this question again when you are 1) resurrected and 2) glorified. Sorry if I sound harsh. It really seemed like you were attacking the doctrine of eternal security more than the question at hand. Or, maybe it’s just me…peace to you as you work out your own salvation.
MARANATHA
Comment by nbanuchi

Hi Rich,

Yes, maybe Debbie’s comments are “well said” but I respectfully submit, regarding those comments to which I responded, it seems Debbie’s “well said” comments are not “well founded” in Scripture, unless she can provide the texts that support her notions.
Comment by alvin

Nelson, since you brought eternal security into a question of ‘why is life worth living?’(which was originally stated in the negative form) it would not be up to Deb, but up to you to provide your own scriptural support.
I did notice that comments related to the effect of the discussion on people who are really thinking of suicide, (and comments intended to comfort those who have tried to help others and sometimes see them become suicides anyway) were considered by you to be off topic and irrelevant because they were not your particular point of interest, which is proving eternal security wrong and dividing the believers in Christ on this teaching. let me point you back to ##55 “in other words, this is not just a debate free from affecting humans with needs.
as far as making a point one way or another about whether eternal security has any effect on the percentage of suicides in one christian teaching or another, i think statistics will show no difference. in fact some have reversed the argument in this way- those who cannot be sure of not losing their salvation are under terrible emotional strain, believing in heaven and hell and unsure of receiving one or avoiding the other. (those who teach free will still personally base their salvation on the faithfulness of God.)
there is a flaw in the ‘eternal security made me do it’ arguement however.”
Perhaps you know the reference and the rest of the verse containing this phrase, “God is able to save to the uttermost…”
Comment by Anonymous

From Richard Broch.

Hi nbanuchi,
Thank you for your original post way back in #11. It`s been quite a ride.
I agree that my choice of the word “debate” was not applicable. Discussion is definitely better. So we had an open discussion, and everyone had a chance to expound.

But, I have to say, after reviewing the past 74 posts,I will add to my statement in #72 – Debbie`s posts were not only well said, plus they were well founded in the word of God. And I`m adding Alvin`s posts to the same calibre.

nbanuchi, you registered a total of 18 posts, with 6 of those containing Biblical references.
Now granted, several posts were one-liners for corrections,etc.. But, you had your share of long dissertations.

What I`m saying (and it`s just my opinion) is that most of your discussion content might be based on personal thought, philosophy, and/or secular positions.

I feel that your original thoughts in post #11 are not easily answered in the Bible. In other words there is no verse that says,”This saith the Lord,”Thou shalt not commit suicide:.
So what several of us responders did was to search and glean any
passages that we felt would be applicable.

Obviously this is a deep subject. The stories related in a few of the posts are very perplexing, at least they are to me.

O.K. my friend, nbanuchi, I just wanted to get a few perceptions off my mind. No criticisms or slams toward you intended.
If you want to unload on me – go ahead. I`ll still love you.

Grace and Peace.
Comment by Debbie

The one thing that seems elusive in this whole debate so far is the love of God the Father. Would our earthly fathers wish for their children to be so depressed that they would take their own lives? Why would our heavenly Father desire this for His children? I suppose though that suicide is the ultimate act of self centered thinking and there is not rationality or consideration of anybody else’s feelings. It is sad to think that we would even debate to defend such an act. I have no children of my own, but I cannot imagine EVER wishing for ANY child to take their life. There is really no more for me to say. Go in peace and hopefully all with a desire to live and serve the God of the living.
MARANATHA
Comment by nbanuchi

Hi Alvin, regarding post#75

1. Searching back at some posts I’ve made, I cannot find where I bring up this question you mention or where I said “effects of the discussion” are irrelevant. Please provide me with with the posting number wherein I made such comments.

2. To what statistics are you referring?

3. Who argumed that “eternal security made me do it”? I only stated it may further encourage suicidal tendencies that lead to the act, not necessarily cause it.

I apologize, Alvin, but I’m not sure I understand the point of your posting here.

Unfortunately, you stopped short of those whom God is able to save to the uttermost: “them…that come unto God by [Christ]”.

(Don’t worry, Debbie, I didn’t forget you
Comment by nbanuchi

Hi Debbie,

No need for apology.

My concern is that arguments against or to prevent suicide cannot be logically or practically sustained under the counsel of those who espouse “eternal security”. Let us just review some of your comments directly related to the subject of suicide.

nbanuchi: “What reward in danger of being forfeited can be greater than being in Jesus’ direct Presence?
Debbie: Read the Scripture…”If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” I would not want to venture what LOSS entails. Could it be MATT 25:30? I don’t know, but I would not want to tempt fate.

nbanuchi:

(But you are venturing what loss entails).

1. Is the scripture you cited for me to read applicable to the one contemplating suicide? Would you tell that troubled Christian, “You will suffer only loss if you commit suicide but you will be saved”?

2. You may not want to venture but that is you; what about the other person? To tell one contemplating suicide what you would or would not do is not, from my perspective, helpful; the issue is not with you.

3. The other person may truly believe he is saved – and how can you say they are not? – therefore, according to the doctrine of “eternal security”, if it were asked, “Can a Christian lose salvation if they commit suicide?” the answer would have to be, “No,” which may increase boldness to commit the act.

4. I am not denying that Christians receive various rewards for service; however, your expressed notions are all conjecture as what these entail since, as far as I can tell, it is not expressly stated.

5. As such, since the believer will live forever in the bliss of heaven, loss of rewards are not adequate inducements to cease from the contemplation of suicide. How can they be? It’s like telling someone who is getting an inheritance in the future with the desire to rip up some money in his hands, “If you tear up that $5.00, it does not matter; you will still get the 50 trillion dollars. But, you don’t want to rip up the 5 bucks or you’ll lose the benefit of what you could have bought with it.”

BTW, Matt 25:30 reflects eternal damnation, not the mere loss of rewards. Your method of interpreting the text is flawed.

nbanuchi: “Are you suggesting that not all believers will be in the direct presence of Christ? Where will they be? Are there different degrees of closeness to Christ in Heaven? Please provide me with the Biblical data in support of your assertion?”
Debbie: I can no more suggest that not all believers will be in the direct presence of Christ than you can that those who suffer loss of rewards won’t. Ultimately, all true believers end up in REV 22 in the presence of Jesus. The millennial world is a different story…

nbanuchi:

1. I never denied believers will suffer a loss of rewards.

2. Again, what those rewards actually entail is all conjecture on your part.

3. One can also assert that since God is omnipresent, everyone can enjoy the experience of his direct Presence in equal degrees; no one is further or nearer to God than another person.
Comment by alvin

I personally know both people who have thought of suicide in the past and are glad they did not, and people who have tried it, ruined their own health and still wish they had of been successful. I have no desire to continue this debate.
Comment by Debbie

nbanuchi:
Sorry, my comments were directed toward Nelson on the doctrine of eternal security. We are debating things that will occur after we are physically dead. Once again, I don’t think we can fully understand what reward or loss entails in a fallen state. Scripture declares “rewards” as “gold, silver, precious stones.” “Loss” is described as “wood, hay, stubble.” That is not conjecture. There is a judgment of believers. (2COR 5:10) Judgment is usually not a pleasant thing. I know I will hang my head at the Bema judgment because of the time I spent living carnally and chasing after the world. Let’s just say we agree to disagree about your interpretation of the doctrine of eternal security. Using that as means to justify suicide somehow does not ring of divine viewpoint, but human self-centered viewpoint. God can justify whomever He pleases, regardless of their actions. David, who committed murder in order to satisfy his lust of adultery was called by God, “a man after mine own heart.”

Scripture does not provide any direct verses which are given to a believer contemplating committing suicide. Therefore, I cannot give you any specific verses. Your point #5 totally disregards the fact that ANY father, let alone our Heavenly Father whose love is unconditional, would desire His son or daughter to end their life. Now you must show me where Scripture dictates God the Father or the Godhead says this. Please kill yourself so you may spend an eternity of bliss in my presence. Once again…you cannot show me this any more than I can show you Scriptural evidence. So, in the end, I suppose some of us agree to disagree. No hard feelings…I pray you would not ever commit suicide in order to be in the presence of Jesus.
MARANATHA
Comment by nbanuchi

Hi Debbie,

1. We agree that we do not have adeqaute information to show us what a believer’s rewards or punishments entail.

2. I never stated that the doctrine of “eternal security” is justification for suicide; I said it encourages suicide.

3. David committed bot murder and adultery but what made him a man after God’s own heart was his repentance; he genuine sorrow and turn-around from his sin.

4. In the analogy undcer point 5, the only person considered was the subject; no other person or their feelings concerning tearing up $5 was considered. The point being made is aside from God’s pleasure or displeasure. As I stated before, God will be disappointed, but his love is for a lifetime – an eternity – while his disappontment is for a very short while – a couple of seconds at the most compared to eternity!

Again, the real issue, as I see it is that, even if we consider the idea of rewards and punishments, the doctrine of eternal security encourages rather than discourages or contributes to the act of suicide.

No problem with disagreeing, it’s just disappointing how one can hold such a doctrine as “eternal security” and not see the logical and practical dangers inherent in it, especially on the topic of suicide; “eternal security” is a green light for suicide.
Comment by nbanuchi

Oh, I forgot to mention; no response is required. Thanks for discussing the issue with me, anyway…bye…
Comment by Anonymous

“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a LIVING sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.” (ROM 12:1) Suicide kind of puts the kybosh on becoming a living sacrifice. It seems that God does not require our death, but our living in Christ. OUR death is nothing. Associating our lives with Christ’s death is God’s requirement….
Comment by Debbie

nbanuchi,
Your welcome. I too enjoyed a discussion without rancor. Perhaps one day they will post a thread on “eternal security.” I really hate to do way off topic on what the moderator has posted. I am not a five point Calvinist, but a “Calminian.” Maybe we can discuss it in a future thread and all be able to explain why we believe as we do.
MARANATHA